"References to Sources in the Works of J.R.R. Tolkien" by Dawn Felagund (WiP) *AND* A Poll!

[dawn_felagund]

B2MeM Prompt and Path: Compile a List of Sources on a Specific Topic (orange path)
Format: Resource List
Genre: Resource
Rating: General
Warnings: Do not read while driving or operating heavy machinery.
Characters: n/a
Pairings: n/a
Creator's Notes: This is a WiP that may take years to finish. I decided to share it when I reached the midway point of The Silmarillion. Only a dozen-and-a-half more books to go!
Summary: For this prompt, I have decided to begin a project I have wanted to begin for a long time: make a list of every reference to fictional sources or lore or loremasters in Tolkien's works. This is for my own research on historiography and historical bias in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, but I've opted to make it public so that others interested in this topic can benefit as well from my work.

References to Sources in the Works of J.R.R. Tolkien

The next topic on the orange path is "Meta on Fandom." As some of you know, I ran a survey on Tolkien fan fiction a little over a year ago, and I have all this untouched data just begging to be crunched and written about. Only since this is B2MeM and not the indulgence of my own blog, I'd like to write about something maybe interesting to people reading here? So if you have an opinion on what I should write about, please feel free to choose from the topics below!

ETA: Readers and feedback it is! Thanks, everyone! /ETA

[Poll #2064889]

Comments

[hhimring]

Thank you very much for sharing your resource, Dawn.
It was interesting to look at that list.
I suppose "wise of Eressea" could be a late addition, implying Numenoreans, but it could also be left over from the earliest times, when it was still Eriol recording?

[dawn_felagund]

Oh! Good thought on that! Looking at when that passage was actually written may shed some light; I'll eventually get around to doing that. ^_^

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

So many interesting topics, how am I supposed to choose?
Besides the question of whether writing fanfic makes us better writers (I'd say yes, but I'd like to know whether the data agrees - and if it does, this should definitely be an essay that the world outside the fanfic community (TM) needs to read ;)), I'm also really curious about the canon issues - both what we learn through fanfic, and how flexible writers are about adapting their canon to new information (or new fandom trends I guess). So I hope you'll get to tackle more than just the winner from the list. :)

Thank you for sharing your list of source references! I recently stumbled across a list of different in-universe sources (http://www.forodrim.org/gobennas/chron_en.html) (which is internet-ancient, I'm sure you know it already - but some of the lore texts mentioned were completely new to me, bad Lyra!) and chroniclers, which I found very interesting, but your elaborate look at the different mentions in the published Silmarillion itself is even more fascinating. It's so easy to read over these little references to the transmission of lore without really noticing them - I'd never have thought there are so many of them! It's really a lot like the ubiquitous "as ic herde telle" or "as clerkes finden written in their boke" in real-world historical texts (which is exactly the point, I know). So, again, thank you!

[dawn_felagund]

I am definitely going to tackle all of the topics eventually! Probably over the summer while I'm on break. The canon issues interest me immensely (I've done the most so far with looking at data on how users of different sites and archives differ on their willingness to bend canon and in what ways, and that proved much more fruitful and interesting than I expected).

Alas, readers and feedback won, which is fine by me because I've done almost nothing with my reader data. And I know writers always want to know this stuff. :) The lone request I've had for a post about my data has been about writers who don't comment, from a writer, of course. :)

I am familiar with Måns Björkman's page; in fact, it can be seen as having spurred this current project because, when I first found it, when I was first starting my research, I hadn't heard of some of them either. And that made me realize that I really needed to go back through and reread (or sometimes read for the first time, since I haven't read all of the HoMe, even though I own them all) with this particular filter.

It's so easy to read over these little references to the transmission of lore without really noticing them

It is! So much so that, even when reading to look for them, I sometimes catch myself skimming and go back and discover that I've missed one or two.

I'm starting to see patterns in their use and, most of all (most importantly, for my purposes) deliberateness; they are not just embellishments but are used at times when the narrator would have likely lacked a primary source. (Or that's been my observation so far; I'm still in "Of the Ruin of Beleriand.") I don't think I've appreciated the intricacy of Tolkien's work so much as I have since beginning this research and how skillfully he managed truly minute, almost unnoticeable details like this to great effect.

Of course, I think of the formulaic language of Beowulf, being as my thesis was on formulaic language in Beowulf and all! :D

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The feedback issue is certainly interesting (says a writer who can never get enough of it). The problem is just that there are so many intersting topics on the list. But if you're going to tackle them all, whenever, that's cool. :)

I figured you'd know that page, but I figured that just in case... nothing more frustrating than doing a lot of research and then finding that there's a resource that could've really helped if one had known about it early enough.

That is fantastic. I've been wondering whether I've been reading too much into those references that I did catch. Since the application of the oral-formulaic theory didn't really drift into Anglo-Saxon studies until the 1950s and didn't gather momentum until the late 1960s, by which time Tolkien's academic time was as good as over, I've sort of been afraid that he just threw in a few of these lines because he was using primary-world chronicles as a model, but not putting that much thought into it. So the fact that you're keeping track of the use of these references and observing patterns behind it excites me more than it reasonably should! (Figures that I've been pondering the question, but never bothered to put actual research into it. How low I have fallen!) Now I wonder whether Tolkien kept up with "recent" research or whether he just intuited that stuff!

I've already downloaded your thesis and I'm very much looking forward to reading it. Seems that the oral-formulaic question is still near and dear to my heart. I wish I could go back to college... ;)

[dawn_felagund]

(I want to reply in more detail later--ha! this sounds like the other review thread!--but I need to look at Books and Things re: oral theory ... but I did want to ask: I seem to recall that you offered to read over my UVM presentation when it's ready on historical bias in Tolkien? Is that offer still on the table? 8^) It won't be long; I only have 20 minutes. I haven't even written it yet but would appreciate other smart people to look at it when I do. It's my first all-scholars-no-fandom conference so ...)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

(Hah! These threads fit together so beautifully, don't they. ;))
That offer is still good, yes! Though I can't pretend to know the preferences of non-fandom scholars but I'll do my very best.

O

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

I had to smile at 'Does writing fanfic make us better writers?' If E.L. James is anything to go by --- hell no! Seriously, I think that depends on the writer- practice hones skills, but on the other hand too much uncritical praise can make a writer lazy, I've seen that before. It's pretty much down to the individual.

RE: O

[dawn_felagund]

That was the hardest statement to distill down to a length acceptable for a poll. :D Really, those items are looking at whether authors feel like they've improved, or if they deliberately work to improve their writing via fanfic.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

OMG! OMG! OMG! You shared your "source" research with us! You literally brought tears to my eyes. I cannot believe I just found this. I could have missed it! I was crying tears of rage earlier in the week about finding references I wanted online and trying to access them and running up against gigantic paywalls! Outrageous prices--for access to a single article in an anthology, which might or might not even reference what I think it might!

Health care is important and childcare, a living wage, etc., etc., but all of this big $$$$ guarding of information is a scandal and an outrage against humanity.

Thank you for sharing.

[dawn_felagund]

:D :D :D

It's something I believe in as well. There's always this little voice that comes from being raised in a culture where one is told that being first at something matters more than anything else that says, "But someone might say something smart about it before you get the chance to." I'm telling that voice to stfu. I hope other people do stuff with Tolkien and bias/historiography. If I can help with that in my small way, that makes me happy.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

"But someone might say something smart about it before you get the chance to."

I don't think that is a worry for you. You are always the first and smartest with any of this Tolkien scholarship stuff in our fandom circles.

I am excited, because that is exactly the kind of thing that I want to know, but makes my eyes cross when I try to follow it on my own without help.

[dawn_felagund]

That's kind of you to say--thank you. :) I have to teach myself not to care in any case. I'm actually pretty good at it but was still raised in the culture I was, so that whisper is still there sometimes.

makes my eyes cross when I try to follow it on my own without help.

It is very tiring close reading! I'm sure I've missed a few already (currently trying to finish the "Beren and Luthien" chapter before going out on a date with a handsome bearded guy in an hour). But I'm already seeing patterns that are interesting in light of some of my hypotheses. That's exciting and definitely motivates me to come in here and chip away at it a little every day. I want to be finished with the Silm in plenty of time for the UVM conference.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

But I'm already seeing patterns that are interesting in light of some of my hypotheses. That's exciting and definitely motivates me to come in here and chip away at it a little every day. I want to be finished with the Silm in plenty of time for the UVM conference.

Groundbreaking! I am sure it will be interesting. I wish it were ten years ago and I knew what I know now! I would never have been so bullied in this fandom! I knew a lot of things in my guts, from years of reading and studying literature and close textual analysis in other areas of life, but could only sputter when people told me what was received-knowledge within the fandom at the time.

[dawn_felagund]

I hope so! I could be completely disproved in the second half of the book. :D

I allowed myself to be talked into things back in the day by fans with more social capital than me that now make me want to facepalm. (Thankfully, little of it touched my stories--possibly an advantage of working without a beta!--and I am still proud that I resisted labeling AMC as an AU. ;) But we have the future ahead of us to do good work in! (Sorry--I am pie-eyed today even in excess of my usual self. I did 7 km cross-country skiing this morning and think I'm still on the endorphin come-down!)

Would you mind reading over whatever I come up with for UVM? You know I trust your opinion more than anyone's, and you're more familiar with this topic than anyone too. I have 20 minutes, so it won't be long, whatever I end up doing.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I'd be thrilled to read it. Whenever you get anything. It does not have to be finished/final. You can bounce drafts off of me also. Inquiring minds want to know...

[dawn_felagund]

Thank you! I may shoot you an email later tonight. Bobby just said, "It's about that time, darlin'!" so I'm about to dash. I'm not sure what time I'll be home, but if I get online again, I'll send you some early thoughts!

[ladybrooke]

I'm three weeks late, but A.) Thank you for sharing this! It is awesome and makes me want to poke at things more. Especially regarding the fact that it seems that even in Doriath, the sources reflect either a Melian/Valinor inspired pov (like with the tapestries) or are anti-Avari. I wonder if those are somehow linked, since later in time we see other Sindar (Thranduil, etc) deliberately go out of there way to meld with the Silvan....

Also, while not a question of sources so much as coverage, it reminded me that I still need to write something about the difference in how the Kinslayings are portrayed and considered by fandom versus how the Sindar killing the Petty Dwarves is in both cases. (Now, we'll see if I manage to finish that sometime this decade, since it also branches into things like naming of groups of people and what we can tell from whether the culture internal name is used versus an outside name and I am bad at not branching off).

B.) In my view of academia, saying something first is good and all, but if nobody else can find evidence to support it...well, it's not going to go far. Research has to be replicated, it's just that that's not as respected, for some reason. Which could then lead me on a rant about the ethics of research, but nobody wants a two page rant from me about how disgusted I was during my senior research project class. :P

[dawn_felagund]

Thank you for commenting despite the lateness! ^_^

The anti-Avarin bias was painful to me when I saw it all together in one place. (Along with the bias against non-Edain mortals.)

it reminded me that I still need to write something about the difference in how the Kinslayings are portrayed and considered by fandom versus how the Sindar killing the Petty Dwarves is in both cases.

If we were to ever have feature stories in the SWG newsletter and you felt up to it, I'd love to have this as a feature. :) But ... I say that with no pressure! If this would be anxiety-provoking or just not your cuppa, pretend I said nothing! I'm just thinking about our next goals as a group--one of which is adding content to the newsletter--and so I'm poking anyone whom I know to be pondering nonfiction topics that sound interesting. :D

In my view of academia, saying something first is good and all, but if nobody else can find evidence to support it...well, it's not going to go far.

Exactly! I'm sharing raw material that took me hours to put together. It seems a shame to me to hoard that to myself like it was Silmarils or Rings of Power because I'm worried someone might think of something before me or get attention for something they did with my groundwork. I can see how an academic whose career depends on being the first to think of and write about smart things might feel differently but I'm a middle school teacher! I have the luxury of not giving a fuck! :D

(I did have an academic tell me to hoard my research. It highlighted to me the difference between academia and fandom. I far prefer the more collaborative attitude of the latter. I want people to do smart stuff with my groundwork; it makes all those hours of labor worth the while.)

[ladybrooke]

You're welcome for it! :D

The anti-Avarin bias and the bias against the non-Edain mortals is painful for me because it reminds me way too much of how real world cultures are treated. Which, good for Tolkien for managing to make it that realistic, but bad in terms of this is painful to be reminded of.

If we were to ever have feature stories in the SWG newsletter and you felt up to it, I'd love to have this as a feature. :)
As soon as I have it written in a form that is actually feature-able (because right now it exists as one paragraph in my Nimloth argues with Finrod about the Kinslayers and other decisions of the Valar story, which is not a real treatment of the entire issue), you're welcome to it! I don't mind my stuff being featured as long as I know about it, so I don't have to wonder where all the attention is coming from.

Or if you decide you want it sooner, just poke me. I can write short fiction really quickly when it's something like that (nonfiction/meta is where I run into trouble, because unlike fiction where I am constrained by what my characters could reasonably know, in meta/nonfiction I'm only constrained by what I can't find, and I will spend lots of time finding things and then even more time editing out the parts that are not really related). I'm just glad when other people are interested in stuff like that, because most of the time I only hear when people want more Maglor stories or something (and I like Maglor, but I like culture clashes and cultural issues more).

I can see how an academic whose career depends on being the first to think of and write about smart things might feel differently but I'm a middle school teacher! I have the luxury of not giving a fuck!

I'm jealous of you not having to give a fuck! I want to go into academia, but...well, I might not be successful if I end up at the wrong school, because I might recognize the reality of having to withhold some info, but fuck it, I am not going to act like some of my classmates did and make an entire study about suicide and mental health into some clickbait isn't this shocking you should applaud my research thing (that was a disaster. I ended up snapping at my advisor about it, he was worrying too much about the actual suicidal people to have recognized that I was going to be pissed that after a year of me frantically running around trying to prop up a quarter of the people in another major who were having breakdowns because of the research program requirements in general, and then my other professor pissed me off by claiming the classmate didn't recognize how it would come off and she didn't mean it that way).

This is obviously both a soapbox of mine and probably the most traumatic experience I had in college. That stretched over four semesters counting all four required classes involved in the research, and I ended up tutoring or trying to talk people off the ledge at midnight every single class, which when I had my own life, classes, and actual classes I was supposed to be TAing on top of, did not work out very well. So I will never be able to buy into this "Fame and glory is the great end goal of research". Mine is "Nobody had a breakdown or was exploited in the pursuit of this."

I do agree - I prefer other people to use my research/groundwork, I don't want to do all that just for me. Collaborative work is better! Especially since other people have topics they care about far more than I do, which are in the data but I do not want to do or don't have the background to do as well. It makes more sense for them to do it.